Bolt actions and high fps, discuss..

Hmmm, these are all interesting points and I can see Yith's reasoning.

Part of the fun most airsofters have in taking advantage of the 500fps is picking people off at a distance and not being disadvantaged when facing a 350fps AEG. Indeed this is one of the delights of the Tanaka - the twack of a hit at 50m.

One might say this is a sniping role in military terms - and yet surely when thinking about authenticity a bolt action rifle out-ranged an SMG and therefore a higher fps bolt action is perfectly correct. The only inaccuracy (as far as Yith's argument goes) is that for safety you will be carrying a pistol for use under MED. Which brings it down to a safety issue only.

The mix of bolt actions and SMGs was very even on both sides at Ariel and I think this is what made the big difference. Yith didn't feel disadvantaged, which is great. Frankly, when I hear a single shot whack a tree next to me I keep my heat down, especially if I can't see the assailant, as I assume it's 500fps when it might well be sub-350!

As discussed in the pub post game I completely agree with Yiths line of thinking on sub 350 rifles. A number of times yesterday I had the drop on people but had to draw my pistol as the were inside my MED (but too far to bayonet )- which usually got me shot.

The extra range +350 gives you can be a great advantage at times but in close woodland it can be just as great a disadvantage. The increase in the number of rifles in use, plus the retrictive ammo limits means having a sub 350 rifle is no longer the disadvantage it once was and not having to worry about a MED is a huge benefit in my view. There is obviously still a place for high powered rifles in the hands of marksmen but for the average rifleman their is no need for it 90% of the time. A good barrel/hop/ammo combination will still give you that extra bit of range and accuracy over the average aeg with no need for faffing about with a back up if they get too close.

Thats why the K98 springer I'm building will be sub-350. I'll use the Tanaka for more open sites (or very windy days) and use the springer for sites with thicker cover where long range is less important.

Yith, I forgot to ask at Ariel, how did those match grade .25 bb's perform?

Well in the morning I'd come to the conclusion they were no better than any other. As time went on though things got better and better. I'm quite happy with them. Plus I probably only used 150 rounds all day.

Frankly, when I hear a single shot whack a tree next to me I keep my heat down, especially if I can't see the assailant, as I assume it's 500fps when it might well be sub-350!

I keep my head down when I hear a load of bbs hit a tree. I did so even more yesterday as I knew I couldn't compete. I let them waste their bbs trying to ferret me out of my cover and instead waited for a better time to take 'em out.. when they'd run out of ammo or got bored with me and tried to go for an easier target. This worked beautifully several times during the day and felt "right".

But wouldn't you be at a disadvantage then anyway? Doesn't working as a team counter that disadvantage somewhat?

That's certainly my take on it...

I'd consider being able to take a second/third shot while still out of your oponents range an advantage. You especially increase your chances of staying concealed.

I can certainly see the merits to lower power bolt actions, but as skilled as anyone is at this game 1 shot at 350 isn't going to compete very well with a 5-10 round burst.

I think you're missing the point a bit. I don't view this hobby as competitive... I see it as trying to get as close to doing combat in WWII as we can.

I don't worry about having someone with an SMG on the other side as a major problem. They will run out of ammo... and most certainly will when blatting away with only 300 rounds to use for a life.

If you work with a squad that guy with the SMG will have more than just you facing him. He'll have a squad of 3 or 4 bolt actions and he won't necessarily know where they all are.

If both sides are working with the same mix of weapons, as happened at Ariel, then the playing field is even more level.

i am seriously considering downgrading my no4.... but it was its first outing at the weekend so i would like to play it a couple more times at 4oo+ first, just to get used to it, but i like the idea of being able to get closer with a rifle.

This is an interesting dicussion and I must admit to taking to the field with a certain amount of trepidation with a bolt action LROF weapon. This was soon dispelled when I found that even with the .2BBs the 370 ish fps was giving me a decent range (even if I hadn't sorted out the sight picture as yet)

I could engage people at greater than SMG distance which gave me some security. I had a slower more controlled ROF and therefore had to remain calm to take my shots.

After the initial misgivings I quickly overcame this and confidently engaged targets (didn't hit many though)

Careful placement of shots actually means using proper shooting techniques and this added an element to the proceedings which until now have been absent.

In walkons and modern milsim, snap shooting techniques are employed and following line of shot is key. I took my MP40 out for one engagement and apart from it being pants, I didn't get the same feel with it. So I retired it and picked up the K98 again.

I think that what is fundamental here - apart from the lower power debate is - We are looking to introduce skill and depth into the gameplay. By slowing it down - killing the arms race and balancing things - this can be achieved.

The late war scenario I have planned has given me a headache from inception in that it IS late war and MP44s are allowed.... I am praying for mid/locap mags to come on the market but failing that it's going to be a nightmare restricting ammunition....... unless of course everyone attending has the mentality of my good friend with whom I played on Sunday........

So yes - I can see low power bolt actions working - I can see the option to keep hi power ones on board for distance work and I can see the merits of having SMGs on board which run out of ammo quite quickly. (I'm told the best way to control the ROF of an SMG is to adjust the nut behind the trigger!)

Will be interesting to see this develop.

yes sometimes shots go a stray but were all big boys & girls and take it in good humour. I have been shoot in the face at less than 4 meters with a rifle the chap who shoot me apologised immediately saying there wasn’t much else apart from the top of my body to see. And if he shouted out bang he would of given his position away.before he could tell me any of this I shouted fair play to him as I knew immediately he had no choice.point being none of the guys that play CIA or PBI games would shoot a fellow player (friend as we are all mates) at close quarters on purpose .so to summarise rifles shoot further at high fps yes they are seldom used at less than 25 meters. Making them redundant when it all gets to close.so hears an idea any body who plays with a rifle must carry a side arm. Doesn’t have to be period as you could conceal it easy so any cheap pistol would do therefor making it pos to stay in the game when it gets close and personal. And helping new inexperienced players to resisted the urge to shoot people at close range.

I agree with Yith for the following reasons.

1. I don't like pistols (using one yesterday was down to necessity - my rifle was shooting air for most of the day).

2. I refuse to use a scope because there's no way a noob like me would ever have been issued something like that.

3. Due to not having a scope, I can't see where my shots are going beyond about 30m, so what's the point of being able to shoot further than that anyway?

4. I would have done much better engaging at closer range where I've got a good chance of actually hitting. Unfortunately, by the time I got close enough to be inside effective range, it was pretty much time to draw the pistol anyway.

5. I got dropped about twenty paces from the bridge in our plucky charge yesterday, but shortly before that, as I was running in hell for leather it suddenly occurred to me even if I reached the bridge and close quarters, it was all going to end in an embarrassing fumble for my innaccessible pistol - gay. In the absence of rubbish floppy rubber bayonets, I think we should all be able to call a bayonet kill just with a (feigned) rifle jab.

Anyway, I'm convinced. Having b*ggered up one No.4 upgrading it I'm now going to break it again by doing the opposite.

Be curious how the other tanaka owners fair on the sight issue. I know with ours its no good firing it as you would a real rifle, infact it puts the shot way and theres a whole different style for firing the airsoft k98.

From the Ariel game though I felt there was a good mix on both sides weapons, certainly our little band of merry men and me had three rifles, three mp40s(occasionaly more) and 1 lunatic armed with nothing but his pistol. It made a differance to how we all played and at some points those of us with MP40s were next to useless and vice versa and utilising the weaponry rather than a free for all for me made a difference in game play as it was far more tactical. Think it might just have been me that found that

I know the tanaka is a bone of contention to those on the receiving end, but it does work the other way around I appreciate there are those on this thread on both sides commenting hence I'm joining in as its impartial atm. There are definately some of the allied bolt actions firing way over 450fps as well as the K98s (curious on how the likes of Tiny's shell ejecting one fairs on the fps side, although the fact of picking up the shells would become tedious for reloading).

The downside as I see it of reducing them down to as far as 350fps (note I'm not saying I disagree with the possibility of some downgrade but .... ) is that you will instantly be pitting alongside your comrades with low/mid/hi caps at close quarters, the main reason why people had the bolt actions was not to be in that position with something thats totally single shot and very limited on ammo. To me this means you loose all appeal of the bolt action and end up with only very close quarter games as whislt everyones range is "equal" the bolt actions will be underpowered and people will be frustrated then they're only able to fire off how ever many their mag holds with bolt release in between and you end up with the low vs mid vs high cap debacle.

Ours came out of the box and never afaik managed to receive the upgrade (mainly on the grounds it really doesn't need it) so how it fires is as it came from HK when they could be bought for a song. Would add to del I've not seen the downgrade available recently either, however its been about 2 months since I wasted an evening looking at alsorts of airsoft stores and availabilities of items.

From the Ariel game though I felt there was a good mix on both sides weapons, certainly our little band of merry men and me had three rifles, three mp40s(occasionaly more) and 1 lunatic armed with nothing but his pistol. It made a differance to how we all played and at some points those of us with MP40s were next to useless and vice versa and utilising the weaponry rather than a free for all for me made a difference in game play as it was far more tactical. Think it might just have been me that found that

2 lunatics armed with only pistols for a while, and the mix of MP40s and or K98s did change how we approached things tactically during out patrol in the afternoon..
MP40s/pistols, get in close before opening up, if we'd had more K98s then we could have stood off and used the range to our advantage, hence my "move up and get on with it " attitiude . MP44s would have changed that position entirely
all authentic and all added interest

Hi,

I really enjoyed the lower ammo limits and mix of weapons, needing a MED was OK as it offset the rate of fire and poor accuracy with my rifle, and the SMGs did not win automatically as in a normal game.

I understand where Yith is coming from (with lower power bolt actions) as I have also played games with an M14 running at 330ish which, on single shot, is at a disadvantage in a normal game as it has little range advantage. It does allow semi automatic fire though and you can get alot closer!

I agree with Barry's comment about pretend bayonets. If you get close enough to touch with your rifle (without actually clobering anyone) that should be take as a kill (but lets not get too serious about who wins a as it is only a game ).

I think the game rules worked well and if we can keep the mix of weapons closer to reality, and allow a mix of FPS for the rifles (site dependent) it will work as well (or better) next time.

One thing that might help, and we did it in the game, is to be formed into groups. I felt this helped a lot. I would suggest that each side have groups of five with one being notionally in charge and this could be swapped around as the groups decide or the organisers nominate. Each group need a set of standing orders and special orders and this would help both at regen and when our commander is not available or we need to split up.

The reason I favour five is that it is a reasonable number, two make a Zug for the Germans, three groups make a small platoon of which one could be HQ platoon, etc. I don't know that much about ww2 structures but a more defined command structure would help and means that all round defence, etc is easier to organise and briefings can be cascaded down and intel up with less effort and confusion. What do people think?

My opinion is rifles should be able to employ higher fps to compensate for the lack of automatic fire and to simply add another dimension & variable to the game.

Everyone of course has their opinion. I just found having played both ways that actually running it at a lower velocity allowed me to use a more effective and more realistic play style than having a higher velocity rifle. The compensation was actually made up by the better accuracy of the gun, the less noise made when firing hence drawing less attention and the ability to use less ammo than an SMG.

so hears an idea any body who plays with a rifle must carry a side arm.

That's already the rule. A rifleman using a rifle over the normal AEG limit has a Minimum Engagement distance and must carry a sidearm for close up work. The problem is that certainly for the British army, this is an unrealistic loadout and is a pain to implement. It always feels very airsofty for me to pull out a pistol for close work when I should be using my rifle really!

The whole point of this discussion is to investigate an alternative to the inaccurate loadout and play style issue.

One thing that might help, and we did it in the game, is to be formed into groups. I felt this helped a lot. I would suggest that each side have groups of five with one being notionally in charge and this could be swapped around as the groups decide or the organisers nominate. Each group need a set of standing orders and special orders and this would help both at regen and when our commander is not available or we need to split up.

The reason I favour five is that it is a reasonable number, two make a Zug for the Germans, three groups make a small platoon of which one could be HQ platoon, etc. I don't know that much about ww2 structures but a more defined command structure would help and means that all round defence, etc is easier to organise and briefings can be cascaded down and intel up with less effort and confusion. What do people think?

Well that's pretty much exactly what PBI do at our events on the Allied side. We have organised squads, a rank structure and a chain of command. It does work and does add quite a bit to the game.

On Sunday at Ariel on the british side the units were much more ad-hoc, which was absolutely correct for the scenario. However there was still a rank structure to a degree, etc. The fact that we were lost as to what we should do when Major Warner was captured was absolutely spot on.

I'm really not sure you can play the authenticity card here Rich.

Q. Do you have to carry a pistol if you have a +350fps gun?
A. No, if you think it isn't authentic then don't.
Q. Is it authentic that bolt actions can out-range SMGs?
A. Yes
Q. Is it authentic that you can't shoot with a +350fps weapon at close range?
A. No

So, the issue is one of safety which is entirely airsoft related, not authenticity. If you have a game that has a high proportion of bolt actions to SMGs and similar on both sides AND you have a close-ish engagement scenario with kind weather then no probs, a shed load of <350fps bolties will have no problems and will have a great game. An exposed site or disproportionate weapon distribution on the day may well turn into immense frustration.

Sorry Rich, but you've contradicted yourself massively there.

running it at a lower velocity allowed me to use a more effective and more realistic play style than having a higher velocity rifle. The compensation was actually made up by the better accuracy of the gun, the less noise made when firing

Now, I thought Rifles are rather loud. Making your rifle quieter is less realistic!

Oh, and if you're having accuracy issues at higher velocity, it simply means one thing. You havent found the correct Barrel/Hop-up rubber (and unit!) and BB combination yet!

I usually hear Rich before I hear his gun......

Sorry Rich, but you've contradicted yourself massively there.

running it at a lower velocity allowed me to use a more effective and more realistic play style than having a higher velocity rifle. The compensation was actually made up by the better accuracy of the gun, the less noise made when firing

Now, I thought Rifles are rather loud. Making your rifle quieter is less realistic!

It's a matter of proportion. The thing is all real weapons are very loud. An airsoft MG42 or SMG proportionally makes more sound than a rifle does hence draws more attention in exactly the same way in airsoft as in real life. A rifle in both cases does make noise but it is harder to spot because there are less shots going on. Each individual shot is about the same loudness... fire a load together and it's a different matter entirely.

I was not referring to the reduction in fps making the rifle quieter, because it doesn't significantly with a springer. I was talking about the number of shots fired changing the noticability of the weapons.

Oh, and if you're having accuracy issues at higher velocity, it simply means one thing. You havent found the correct Barrel/Hop-up rubber (and unit!) and BB combination yet!

Well I have been using my No4 at high velocity with good bbs for a while and do get excellent hit ratio at long range. What I found was with the lower velocity of course the SMLE wasn't as effective. However it did mean I could go in closer without having to switch to a less accurate pistol. (less accurate both in terms in historical accuracy and shooting accuracy)

I'm really not sure you can play the authenticity card here Rich.

Q. Do you have to carry a pistol if you have a +350fps gun?
A. No, if you think it isn't authentic then don't.
Q. Is it authentic that bolt actions can out-range SMGs?
A. Yes
Q. Is it authentic that you can't shoot with a +350fps weapon at close range?
A. No

So, the issue is one of safety which is entirely airsoft related, not authenticity. If you have a game that has a high proportion of bolt actions to SMGs and similar on both sides AND you have a close-ish engagement scenario with kind weather then no probs, a shed load of <350fps bolties will have no problems and will have a great game. An exposed site or disproportionate weapon distribution on the day may well turn into immense frustration.

No the last point makes it an issue of authenticity as well. If you can't shoot at all ranges with your rifle then that is inauthentic. If you have to stop using it or switch to a pistol when getting close, that is inauthentic. What I found was that the argument about the range difference didn't actually matter in a rifleman role. It may well in a sniper role. But I don't want to play a sniper role.